Guest Chapter 10
Name: Nicole Day
Current Position: Associate Director, Legal Counsel – Product at Twitter
Former Post-Law School Positions: Director, Legal Counsel at Epsilon Data Management, LLC; Associate at Holland & Hart LLP; Associate at Davis Graham & Stubbs LLP; Associate at InfoLawGroup LLP
Legal Practice Area: Technology.
I started my legal career in privacy and security compliance, then transitioned to technology transactions, privacy, and advertising. I now focus on the product side of in-house work, advising product and engineering teams as they build.Law School and Year: University of Colorado, 2010 (J.D.); University of Colorado, 2011 (LL.M. – Information Technology and Intellectual Property)
Time between undergrad and law school: 1 year (taught English in Brazil)
One or two books I recommend: Burnout: The Secret to Unlocking the Stress Cycle by Emily Nagoski and Amelia Nagoski – Great for women who feel stressed, overwhelmed, uninspired, tired, or any combination. With burnout so rampant in the legal profession, particularly among women, I recommend this book to all of my female colleagues.
Short background on why I went to law school
I went to law school because I had absolutely no idea what to do with my life. When I graduated from college, I knew almost nothing about available professions, or about the world generally, making it nearly impossible to stake out a path that made sense for me. My father is a lawyer, so when I started to panic about what to do after my teaching gig, I took my father's advice and applied to law school. “Just because you go to law school doesn't mean you have to practice law,” he said. “A law degree will give you a leg up in any field.” I'm willing to bet you've heard some variation of this platitude (no offense, dad).
My first year of law school was a disaster. I disliked most of my classes, and after I blacked out from fear during mock oral arguments, I realized I'm not suited for a courtroom.
I was nearly ready to throw in the towel when I took an intellectual property survey course the second semester of my second year. That is when I discovered the overlap between law and technology, and met the professor who inspired me to pursue it.What frustrated me most about coming out of law school and/or what frustrates me with regards to people I work with or hire who are newly out of law school
I think the first year of law school is mostly a waste. Forcing students to take classes they may have little or no interest in can severely demotivate. There are ways to provide law students with proper fundamentals and set them up for bar exam success without dictating an entire year's curriculum. I find it incredibly frustrating that after three years, many law school graduates lack basic core skills necessary to practice law. Sure, they can tell you about the rule against perpetuities, but they can't negotiate effectively or conjure persuasive arguments on the fly. I can tell you with 100% certainty that when I wrote the prior sentence, it was the first time I used the phrase “rule against perpetuities” since 2010.
As for recent graduates, I've found they tend to overstate what they know and overestimate their skills. There's always more to learn, and it's perfectly fine to admit you're unsure about something (or everything, as was the case when I was a first-year associate). When you're fresh out of law school, your superiors don't expect you to know everything. They expect you to ask questions about everything—substantive issues, client relationships, processes… everything. It's far better to own up to not having an answer and take the time to ask questions and conduct your own research than to provide an incorrect or incomplete analysis.
How have you used (or not) the core concepts of lawyering as this book proposes: Empathy, Listening First, Asking Questions, and Giving Advice?
I've already touched a little bit about how important it is to ask questions generally.
This is particularly true in technology-based or adjacent roles. Products are multifaceted and constantly evolving. As product counsel, being curious is essential: asking questions until you understand all of the ins and outs of a product is essential in order to conduct a thorough analysis of how the law applies. This ties in well with listening first—make sure you give your clients ample time to explain what their problem is, what their product is, etc. You'll be surprised by the volume of information people divulge when you keep your mouth shut. As a general principle, people love talking about themselves. Give them the opportunity to talk, and when it's your turn to ask questions, they'll be happy to answer them because you've demonstrated your ability to listen.Of the four core concepts, I believe empathy is the most important. Empathy is essential to being a good person, which has been instrumental in my professional success. I won't pretend all stereotypically successful lawyers are good people—that's just simply not true. To me, “success” is a lot more than becoming a partner at a big law firm or General Counsel at a large company. To me, it's about finding work you think is interesting and challenges you, and doing that work with people you enjoy being around. That can be hard to find, particularly in the legal world, and I wouldn't have found it without the real relationships I formed with clients and colleagues along the way. People are drawn to goodness, and being empathetic is a strong signal.
Biggest mistake(s) you made while in law school
Name a mistake to make in law school, I probably made it. A big one was not attending enough lunch hour events my first year, I think doing so would've helped me get a better sense of different legal practice areas. Another was failing to seek out a mentor early on. Find a teacher who seems interesting to you and go talk to them. Ask what they like and dislike about the law. Tell them what you're interested in outside of law school.
They may have some great ideas about areas of law you can explore that integrate your interests.What class(es) did I wish I had taken while in law school? In or outside the school? What about today?
Think about what you're interested in outside of the law. Do you like sports? Computers? Fashion? Cooking? Whatever you're interested in, it has a nexus to the law. I failed to realize this until pretty late in the game. Figure out how your interests and the law intersect, and take classes that boost your acumen in those areas to set you apart. For example, if you think technology law is for you, skip the law school mixers and take some computer science classes. Basic knowledge about things like programming languages, algorithms, and data structures will put you way ahead of the curve.
Most useful classes in law school
Introduction to Intellectual Property Law and Computer Crime. Introduction to Intellectual Property Law is what introduced me to the overlap between law and technology. Computer Crime is what cemented my interest in technology law, specifically privacy issues that arise in the context of technology-based investigations. These two classes were vastly different from the other classes I took during law school because I actually enjoyed the readings. I listened to those instincts.
How did you decide what to do post-law school? With hindsight, how good of a job did you do?
Because I discovered the intersection between technology and the law the second semester of my second year, I didn't feel like I had enough time to take all of the classes that interested me before graduation. My teacher-turned-mentor suggested I stay another year to get a specialized LL.M., enabling me to complete additional courses, write and publish a thesis, and land my first job with a small, niche privacy and security law firm.
Biggest mistake you made while at your first job
I rushed and made silly mistakes because I was overly concerned that clients would complain I billed too many hours per project.
If you work at a law firm or other place that requires you to keep time, don't look at the clock. Your managing partner/manager will write off time if they need to; you don't need to focus on whether something is taking you too long. Take the time you need to do your job thoroughly and completely.Best advice you received or have given for those coming out of law school
“Don't be afraid of the red pen.” When I worked as a technology transactions associate, I did a lot of work for an incredible partner who would mark up my drafts with a red pen. The first time the partner reviewed one of my drafts, she handed my draft back to me and it looked like a crime scene. Sensing fear and panic in my eyes as I began to flip through it, the partner told me not to be alarmed by the amount of red. She then took over an hour out of her day to explain her edits and answer my questions. This happened over and over, with the amount of red decreasing each time. The red pen isn't to be feared if you take the time to learn from it. But if you don't invest in learning from your mistakes, you'll never escape them.
Worst advice you received or have given for those coming out of law school
“You have to work at a law firm first.” While the training you can get at a law firm is difficult to replicate elsewhere, and law firm experience may give you a leg up in the applicant pool, working at a law firm isn't a necessary evil. Internships can be a great way to get your foot in the door. Taking a position that is legal-adjacent—such as a policy or compliance role—is a great way to get in-house experience right out of law school that can be parlayed into a legal career.
How have you remained happy in your profession? Have there been times when you were not? If so, what did you do to improve your situation?
Being a lawyer is terrible. Of course this isn't true for everyone, or even for me all of the time, but see what happens when you ask attorneys whether they agree with this sentiment.
Whatever professional legal path you take, you'll inevitably experience one or more commonalities that bolster this sentiment: long hours, difficult clients, antiquated and/or vague laws, unfairness, demoralizing situations… the list goes on.So if being a lawyer is terrible, how have I remained happy? I found an area of law that centers around something that interests me (technology), and I took often-necessary steps to land a position at a place where being a lawyer is the least terrible. Product counseling is the most technology-heavy, creative role I've had during the course of my career. It's extremely difficult to land a product counsel gig straight out of law school, however. Many tech companies look for applicants with prior law firm experience, with brownie points going to those who've worked both at a firm and in house. So that's what I did. The training I received at law firms, and the in-house work I did after I left law firms behind, is what landed me where I am today. That, and being myself in interviews.
If you've always wanted to be a lawyer, good for you. That was never me. I'm not even sure I want to be a lawyer now. What I do know is that my job is not my life, and the ability to spend time with my family and pursue my hobbies is paramount for me. If you're like me, find a place that prioritizes work/life balance, and do what it takes to get there.
If you could go back in time and tell your younger self something about making the transition from law school to the real world, what would it be?
Surround yourself with people you actually like. Enjoying the company of your colleagues will have an enormous impact on your emotional wellbeing, which in turn will increase and improve your relationships, which in turn will impact your professional success.
The first step toward surrounding yourself with people you like is being 100% yourself in interviews. If you act the way you think someone wants you to act rather than like yourself, or you're nervous, or you overstate or otherwise misrepresent your knowledge and experience, it's only a matter of time until your facade crumbles. Be true to yourself, and see if you genuinely connect with the people interviewing you. If a connection isn't there, move on. It'll be better for you in the long run.