Guest Chapter 9

Name: Gregory Mann

Current Position: Associate Chief Counsel with the California Department of Fair Employment and Housing (12 years with DFEH)

Former Post-Law School Positions: Associate with Jones Day (2 years); O'Donnell & Shaeffer LLP, mid-sized elite litigation firm (4 years); O'Donnell & Associates, small, elite trial firm (2 years), and Lapidus & Lapidus, small litigation firm (1 year).

Legal Practice Areas: Litigation: civil rights (employment, housing, public accommodation discrimination); general business; intellectual property.

Law School and Year: University of Michigan, 1998

Time between undergrad and law school: None. Although I went straight from college to law school, I suggest taking at least a year or two after graduating college to travel, volunteer, and work—i.e., gain life experience—before going to law school. The maturity and experience gained by living as an adult in the “real world” outside the academic bubble enhances the law school experience by providing some real-world insight for your legal education. I also think time away from school rejuvenates our ability to learn and builds an appreciation for attending law school.

Short background on why I went to law school

I grew up 15 miles east of downtown Los Angeles in a diverse working-class neighborhood. My parents did not go to college, but they firmly believed in the American dream and instilled in me from a young age that I would attend college. A career in law or medicine would be my ticket to wealth. Arguing came natural to me, so I gravitated toward the law from a young age. When I got to high school and learned about Thurgood Marshall, Brown v. Board of Education, and how lawyers used the law to fight for justice and equality, my goal was to become a civil rights lawyer.

How have you used (or not) the core concepts of lawyering as this book proposes: Empathy, Listening First, Asking Questions, and Giving Advice?

I use these concepts daily in representing victims of discrimination. Every lawyer, and certainly every litigator, uses these core concepts regularly. You cannot adequately represent clients without listening to them, asking them questions, and giving them advice. Doing each of these things with empathy makes each more effective and provides insight otherwise missed. Empathy is also crucial to building trust with clients (and witnesses), which is essential to providing them your best representation. When approached with empathy, clients and witnesses open up when discussing the facts and their motivations, which helps avoid damaging surprises. Employing these core concepts also makes clients feel heard, which makes them more receptive to your advice. Practice these concepts in all the legal work you do and you will reap major benefits.

Most useful classes in law school, and what class(es) did I wish I had taken while in law school? In or outside the school? What about today?

As a litigator, the most helpful classes were the core first-year classes: Contracts, Civil Procedure, Torts, and Constitutional Law. Those classes provided a foundation upon which to build my legal education. Litigators use concepts from those classes throughout our careers, regardless of practice area. For example, settlement agreements are contracts. So even though I no longer litigate business disputes, I still frequently deal with contracts.

As a civil rights lawyer, Constitutional Law, Civil Rights/Section 1983 Litigation, the Fourteenth Amendment, and Employment and Labor Law were crucial to my development. Although I spent a decade in private practice litigating business disputes before I applied the information I learned in those classes, I was so grateful to have taken those classes because most of what I learned came rushing back to me once I started working at the DFEH. It is obvious, but if you want to work in a certain area of law, take classes in that area. While you will likely not be limited in your career options if you do not take classes in the area of law in which you want to practice—on the job learning/training is most important for lawyers—having the knowledge you learn from those classes will help you, even years later.

I knew I wanted to be a litigator so I did not take Negotiations. But I wish I would have! Most cases settle, and they settle through negotiations. Take a mediation class. You will learn about listening, empathy, and asking questions, all of which are crucial to representing clients in any situation. Take at least one undergraduate class or a class at another graduate school if that is an option. And take classes that interest you! Most of the knowledge you need to practice law you will learn on the job. So do not hesitate to take a few classes that interest and engage you.

How did you decide what to do post-law school? With hindsight, how good of a job did you do?

Although I always wanted to be a civil rights attorney, graduating with six figures in debt meant I had to postpone that dream.

My plan was solid, and I was able to bring it to fruition by sticking to it, being financially responsible, and staying true to my values even while working at firms that did no civil rights work. In hindsight, my plan worked well, and I am very proud I stuck to my values and avoided getting caught up in making big firm money or the big firm lifestyle. It was not easy to leave firm life for a job making less 11 years out of law school than I made as a second-year associate. But despite seeing my big firm friends succeed financially in ways I likely never will, I never regret my decision to follow my passion for civil rights law.

Biggest mistake you made while at your first job

My biggest mistake at my first job was not building strong enough relationships with senior attorneys and not finding a mentor. Don't get me wrong, I had good relationships with several senior associates and a few partners. But I did not work hard enough to strengthen those relationships, and I did not maintain them once I left Jones Day. At my second job I found a strong, experienced mentor, whose support proved invaluable throughout my four years there.

Best advice you received or have given for those coming out of law school

I received lots of professional advice before starting my first legal job, most of which I promptly forgot. However, the best advice I received was from a senior associate while I worked as a summer associate the summer after my 2L year: pay attention to detail. After editing a memo I drafted, he provided those simple words of wisdom, which I took to heart and have practiced throughout my career.

Paying attention to detail has paid major dividends. I noticed immediately that something as simple as using proper citation form and formatting resulted in fewer revisions to my written work, which built trust in my work with senior associates and partners. At my second firm my co-workers immediately noticed my attention to detail, and I became a go-to editor of briefs, even for cases to which I was not assigned. This helped me gain the respect of my peers and build relationships with co-workers. A crucial aspect of being a successful junior lawyer is gaining the trust of senior lawyers. Paying attention to detail is a fundamental means by which to do so, and it is completely within your control.

Another great piece of advice I received was to build and maintain a network of colleagues. As an introvert, I have always found this difficult. But I try, and it has been integral to my career. Aside from my first two jobs, my other jobs came through referrals from colleagues. I have been recruited and nominated to boards, invited to speak at seminars, and asked to provide training to attorneys and laypeople by members in my network. In fact, I was invited to write this chapter by a dear friend from law school.

Lastly, be—or at least act—excited about your work, especially when working with others. Before doing civil rights work I rarely got excited about my work. I worked hard and did good work, but without any passion or excitement. Although I got along well with almost everyone I worked with, I never seemed to click when working with a rainmaker who loved practicing law and always seemed excited to be in the office. He would eagerly ask me about an assignment, and I would calmly provide an update without matching his level of excitement or interest. Our working relationship was fine, but I was missing out on the opportunity to work closely with, learn from, and hear the stories of one of the best litigators in the country. One day I was in a particularly good mood when asked by this partner for an update, and I provided the update with much more enthusiasm than usual, meeting his level energy and interest. The gleam in the partner's eyes brightened, he engaged me in a lively discussion of the issues, and we clicked as we had never done before. From then on I met this partner's level of energy and enthusiasm—even though I was often simply faking it. Yet, simply pretending to be as interested in the matter as that partner had the real effect of increasing my actual enthusiasm. And it greatly improved my working relationship with that partner, which later led to a job when he opened a boutique trial firm. If it does not come natural to you, as it did not for me, fake it until you make it. You will be amazed at the benefits.

Worst advice you received or have given for those coming out of law school

“Do whatever it takes to satisfy your client.” That is terrible advice! Your clients do not know the law, may be focused on ends other than obtaining justice, and do not have to live with the implications to your professional reputation caused by unethical, irresponsible, or inconsiderate behavior on your part. Rather, show empathy and support to your client; help them understand that you are invested in their success. Listen to them and ask questions to understand their underlying interests. Use your knowledge and experience (and that of your colleagues) to advise them of their options, the costs associated with pursuing each option, and your best estimate of each option's success. But you must always maintain control over legal strategy and decisions. And you must protect your integrity and professional credibility regardless of what a particular client requests.

How have you remained happy in your profession? Have there been times when you were not? If so, what did you do to improve your situation?

Maintaining professional happiness, or at least contentment, is crucial to a happy—or whatever your goal may be—life. Like litigation, my professional satisfaction has waxed and waned throughout the years. Although a big firm salary enabled my financial stability, the practice did not inspire or satisfy me. I found it incredibly difficult and unrewarding to bill 2000 hours a year representing large corporate clients and very wealthy individuals. But I did pro bono work for my firms, volunteered outside the office, and joined organizations in pursuit of my passion for civil rights. I moved from a big firm to a medium-sized firm, which improved my satisfaction. Then from the medium-sized firm to small firms: another improvement. It was not perfect, but it balanced my goals, and I always looked forward to the day my sacrifices would pay off. And they did! After a decade, including a few interesting and fun detours, I got my dream civil rights job.

But even dream jobs have their ups and downs. Whether it's a new administration or boss, a different assignment or responsibilities, or any of the inevitable changes that occur in your professional and personal life, satisfaction can fade to disillusionment. But fear not, there will be a new administration or boss, a different assignment or responsibility, or some other change in your professional or personal life that will be a catalyst to get you back on the road to satisfaction. When my motivation subsides or my frustration begins to dominate, the thing I always remind myself of is that I am helping people who need help and supporting the long arc toward justice. It's not a magic elixir of happiness, but it helps.

One or two books I recommend: Getting to Yes (Roger Fisher and William Ury). This is not a secret or a surprise. Getting to Yes is a must read whether you want to litigate, negotiate, or mediate. Learning to discover and then focusing on people's underlying interests is crucial to practicing in any area of law. So too is knowing that there is almost always a solution to every problem and a resolution to every dispute. Whatever you choose to do in law, this short book will provide useful insight. Read it every few years and take it to heart.